Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): just a quick around the library - what has been happening in your library with games - just a sentence from everyone?

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): planning a Halo tournament (our first) in June

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): Halo tournament sounds fun I am planning a second games and library seminar this year in July - will have big focus on board games and Joanne O'Mara who spoke here - will be speaking irl

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): that sounds great, Frantic!

Maxwelig: We have a few people looking into having a D&D night at the library mainly focused on teens

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): sounds very interesting

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): Brandon should have some feedback on that -- I know he started D&Ding in his library recently

Warriorwolf: We are a little low key at the moment we are still offering GameOn sessions which are sessions for teens to play games in the library and can be any games but mainly electronic. We have started a GameOn page on our ReadOn website with a list of age appropriate

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): I really like the GameOn idea - I will have to check it out.

I will also be planning further rugame sessions for rest of year - please let me know anyone you would like to see here -

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): Do you all think gaming is going stale in libraries? Growing, fading, or staying the same?

Warriorwolf: we are still researching and writing a literacy program we are introducing of linking games and collection, reading, writing and other programs

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): different libraries at different stages with games - need to keep rethinking how games are presented, will be interesting to see influence of NYPL game designed by Jane McGonnigal in late May

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): agreed -- I hope it has the impact it could, whether it does or not-- will be informative in and of itself

Warriorwolf: i want to have delicious tags on the catalogue

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): Warrior - tags about games?

Warriorwolf: yeh so if you like that game you might like this book, you spoke about it last year, we finally have a new eservices librarian and we may be able to do more now

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): Hello and welcome to this talk. My name is Ellen Forsyth and I work at the State Library of New South Wales, I would like to acknowledge all the traditional owners of the land.

It is great to see all of you here today. I have been looking forward to hearing this speaker today for a long time. A really big thanks to Liz Danforth for suggesting Brandon. I have also enjoyed a couple of skype discussions with Brandon.

The speaker today is M Brandon Robbins, he is a guest blogger on the Games, gamers and gaming blog. He was recently selected one of ALA Emerging Leaders, and he wrote one of the winning proposals for the big Libraries, Literacy, and Gaming grant handled by ALA and funded by the Verizon Foundation. Brandon tweets from @level250geek.

I am really looking forward to what Brandon has to discuss with us today. Over to you Brandon/Taggenbagg.

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): thanks, Frantic. good evening, those of you in my timezone, and to my Australian friends: greetings from the past!

:) Sorry, couldn't resist.

First of all, I'd like to say that I was paying attention to the guild chat OMW here and there are some good things you all have going. Our D&D/RPG nights have been great successes, and Halo is one of those games that you just can't do wrong. Good luck with your projects, and I'm sure you'll do great.

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): If you have to pitch it to management - what measures do you use to define "a successful" gaming event?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): That's a great question. There are all kinds of ways to define success, as I'm sure you know. Did everyone have fun, did lots of people show up; I'd be glad to talk about it more with you afterward and I'll of course share my email if y'all like to drop me a line later.

Okay, Ellen and I have a had a few talks about what we'd like to focus on for thist talk, and I'd like to speak on games as a narrative device, hooking it around to why this qualifies games as needing free speech protection, and finally touch on something that should be near and dear to our Australian librarians: the lack of an R18+ certification for games, and why this is a big deal.

One of the best examples of games as a narrative device is indeed the very virtual world in which we all stand right now.

WoW is a role-playing game; some gamers take the role-playing more serious than others, some focus specifically on PvP or raiding, but the spirit of the game lies in creating a character and existing in an imagination-fueled fantasy environment. In doing so, we tend to create a personality and history for our toons, to connect us to the gameplay: the quests, the raids, and such.

We're creating our own story, and that's one level of games as a narrative device: they are a tool we can use to build our own fiction. It's much like writing for yourself/as a hobby. Your toon's story may never make you any money, but it brings you a level of personal satisfaction.

Of course, we also work with other people--our guildies, our friends, other players--in creating this story, which makes this much like a tabletop RPG (Dungeons and Dragons, Vampire: the Masquerade). We work with our player community/group to make a collaborative story about relationships, rivalries, heroic feats, acts of treachery and bravery. It all fires off intense creative energy that just builds on itself, ultimately making us better thinkers and more fulfilled people.

The same could even be said about single-player video games such as Fallout 3, Dragon Age: Origins, and The Witcher. They offer the same experience minus the collaboration, which can still be a very enriching experience. How many writers find pleasure in penning stories no one but themselves will ever read?

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): DA2 is hardcore narrative -- enough that some people don't care for it not being game-like enough

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): True, and I certainly believe that there still must be a game underneath it all. That's one place where Fallout 3 soars. In fact, that leads into my next thought. Each of those games offer different narrative-building experiences. Fallout 3 is very open-ended. After a relatively brief introductory sequence, you're given free reign over where you go within the virtual world. There are no rails; you determine what your character does, how they do it, if they act noble or evil: there is very little you don't decide. There is a main quest/plot, but you can duck into or out of it at will. You can just go around the post-apocalyptic wasteland killing things if you want. This is what us gamers call a "sandbox game." The tools are there, you just play with them: just like a schoolyard sandbox.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): How far toward Second Life sandboxishness though? Lack of sufficient direction can be as stultifying as too much, (or as I've said before: WoW is a game; SL is a toy)

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): It sounds like a "sandbox game" would appeal to more experienced gamers - newbies must find it a bit of a challenge?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): And that's one reason why some gamers don't care for sandbox games. They are overwhelming in their freedom. Me, I like to play sandbox games the way a python digests food: slowly and over a long period of time. :) :You'll never hear me say I beat a game like Fallout 3 in a week (in fact, I've yet to beat it). DA/DA2 offer less freedom: the story is linear and offers only a few opportunities to deviate, but you can never forsake it entirely. However, the character is your own creation. You determine their gender, personality, fighthing style: everything. You don't determine the where, the when, and the what, but the who and how and, sometimes, the why.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): The "why" heavily, I would say -- that's the part of the game going on between your ears, even WoW can be pretty narrow in its way (Liz writes about these ideas in a recent blog post)

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Exactly, but it's also the part of the game that largely *doesn't* happen onscreen.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): but what you do outside the computer and the screen -- this is just the skeleton it all hangs on, exactly

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): A bit like the part of a book that happens between your ears ...

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): For an example of that, I would suggest looking up one of Yahtzee's recent columns on The Escapist, where he discusses how logical gameplay decisions (save the healer!) led him to develop his character into a !@#$%^&*!@.

An even more narrow narrative experience happens in game such as The Witcher and Batman: Arkham Asylum, where you are playing as a character who is firmly established (either in other fiction or as an original video game character)

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): Perhaps in a gaming world toons don't have to have the consistency that you have in real life ... good one day, evil the next?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): but you are given some freedom in their character development, allowing you to create your own idealized version of that character. That's true, Stefwynn, and it's easy to meta on a game and make your decisions regarding personality depending on what loot you want. :)

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): it's no more satisfying to have inconsistent toons than it is to read poorly written fiction characters if you care about such things in a game (and I do)

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): This character freedom in literary or real life inspired characters... do you mean it's a bit like a movie directors version of a character in a remake?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): You're probably right, but there is still a role-playing element to those games in that you assume the identity of the lead character and make decisions based on their interpretation of the character, which could lead to equally deep character interaction.

Movie director=gamer FTW, Stef.

That's exactly like it: the game give you the actors and the set, you just revise the screenplay and determine the flow of the action. So, we've talked about collaborative narrative experiences, sandbox games, "toolbox" games (DA/DA2), and "director's chair" games.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): Two directors -- whether theater, movies, or games -- can take exactly the same script and produce quite different "shows"

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): True, which makes you own experience very intimate and satisfying. Like I said earlier: like writing for yourself.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): I'd take issue with that, though, Tag, even in single player games, the community shares a common groundwork and experience, like WoW players who play on different servers, or on opposite sides of the faction line, again, it's just taking place off screen

Reyn√¢rdine: some of the best writing in the world is for one's own eyes, diary of anne frank, anyone?

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): I'd suggest that's the exception and not the rule though, the power of the narrative happens when it's shared

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): I will say that "director's chair" games tend to be more game and less narrative, but in interacting with other games and seeing how everybody's experience differs, that--I think--would *be* sharing narrative. But your point remains: at some point, the narrative must be shared. The key difference between collaborative experiences and singe-player experiences lies in the creation.

Nevertheless, it's obvious that because of their immense power for creating stories, games lend themselves to exploring emotion, motive, politics, economics--all kinds of big ideas. so, start dancing if you think they should have legal, free speech protection. (all toons started dancing)

Reyn√¢rdine: governments would have to abandon wipo to grant that, so I'm skeptical. and ALA would need to abandon slavish lip service to it.

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): before I go on, just for context: wipo? how so?

Rey√¢rdine: when you click for wow, you agree to fork rights over to Blizz

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Oh, I see. That's a whole 'nother beast. I was thinking more of artistic freedom for the creators. In the States, we're *still* trying to decide if video games deserve 1st Amendment protection/recognition. Because they are inherently artistic works--even "pure" games, since game/level design IS an art.

I think they do.

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): Sorry, confused here ... first amendment = freedom of speech but doesn't that apply automatically to all creators regardless of format? (Aussie here so not sure about US)

Reyn√¢rdine: I think he's referring to Schwarzenegger v. Entertainment Merchants Association but it's garbled, so hard to tell.

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): You would think, Stef, but we're having a hard time deciding if a "game" can be a work of art. For example, I once heard the argument "Well, the rules of baseball aren't protected by the First Amendment." That's true, but the rules of baseball don't allow for contemplation and reflection on life, the universe, and everything; played the right way, Braid does. :)

Of course, the real snag--and this is where things get more garbled--is when the issue of minors come in.

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): So are you worried about a conflict between freedom to say / do things in a game and the terms of use that can be used to control what is said / done?

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): or that if someone agrees to the terms of use and are minors that there may be complications

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): It's a bit of both, but the bulk of the argument comes from the fact that minors are playing games for adults, and because of this, some government bodies wish to censor them/restrict access to them.

Reyn√¢rdine: are you referring to the obscenity issues then?

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): mmm... yes we know a little of this ... internet filtering anyone!

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): There has been that argument yes, that violent/mature games are essentially #$%^.

Reyn√¢rdine: that's not simply an electronic medium argument: the written word is still open to censorship if it's deemed harmful to minors.

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): My stance is that just as there are books and movies that are ideal for kids--and those ideal for adults. There are games ideal for kids and games ideal for adults. In the US, we have the Electronic Software Ratings Board. They review and assign ratings to games, which are clearly posted on game boxes and in all promo material.

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): that is the argument which has been used here for the R18+discussion, actually often formats other than books get better descriptive ratings

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Exactly. As librarians, who champion free access to material and encourage parental responsibility over government restriction, we should be concerned about the push to have gov't regulate game content and sales.: The situation is espeically bad in Australia, where there is no rating denoting a game as mature content, and without a rating games cannot be sold.

Reyn√¢rdine: the ESRB like the MPAA is a voluntary system, though.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): especially when the side-result is restriction over the access of adults with every legitimate right to legal materials

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): The laws in Aust already have provisions around not lending MA15+ material to minors

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): exactly, Hiemal (Liz Danforth). If the publisher of a mature-content game wants to sell their wares in Australia, they have to edit it down to the 15+ rating.

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): In NSW we even had to have special exemptions around the limit of responsibility for library workers see: Public Library Exemption under the Classification (Publications, Films and Computer Games) Enforcement Act 1995 (NSW)

Maxwelig: some issues are more frustrating with arguments around being able to display adult Graphic Novels my personal bug bear at the moment

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Comics/manga/GNs are a smoking, big bore gun over here as well, Max.

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): Do they have to edit it down for Aust market when currently our highest rating for computer games includes everything MA15+ and above (I don't know)?

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): it's ironic, because I personally just dealt with a formal challenge to "The Man Who Fell To Earth" by a patron who felt it should be inaccessible to minors, or labelled XXX

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): The issue is that the MA15+ rating denotes 15 as the minimum age, whereas an 18+ rating would denote it as a adult-only content. so, yes: they do.

For example, the most recent Alien vs. Predator game, developed by Rebellion, published by SEGA, was not released in Australia. Why? Rebellion/SEGA didn't want to edit the game. They flat-out said "This is a game for adults, we made it to be games for adults, we're not going to make it more kid-friendly, sorry."

Well, other than being an issue of free access, you're right: it leads to piracy, imports (which rob the national economy), and all kinds of other issues.

Reyn√¢rdine: it tends to have the side effect of enhanced interest in summat that probably would have gone unnoticed. Fun stuff.

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Actually, since there are no adults-only games on the market in Australia, it does create a false sense of security. It reinforces video games as a kids' medium, and that's wrong.

Warriorwolf: yes i found my 12 y daughter playing her fathers war game where they have to slit throats and it was graphic

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): yes when all the statistics on use show adults play heaps and that over 55 yr old women are the growth market

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): it does tend to draw one up short, if you haven't been exposed to it. I recall seeing "Saving Private Ryan" and being ... unsettled, right at the start. Didn't make it a less valuable movie. Would hardly want an 8 year old to watch it without an older person on hand, at the very least -- and probably not even then

I'll be interested to see what comes of a project I'm peripherally involved with -- a startup MMO that is focusing predominantly on story-crafting, user-created content, and much less on killing-for-XP, first display of content and practice will be at this year's GenCon. Jonathan Tweet is the lead designer for story-and-lore

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): I am interested in the gaming and literacy project that Tag received a grant for ... what's involved?

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): I worked with ALA on that grant, Stef -- it finished over a year ago now, Tag wrote one of the winning grants. It was a 2-year, million dollar (US$) project

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): Were the libraries using gaming to build literacy skills or did it also involve engagement with schools?

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): about a dozen people were selected as "gaming experts" ... Eli Neiburger, Beth Gallaway, Scott Nicholson, others ... to look first at what libraries were already doing with games in support of literacy, then the grant RFP was to propose a new gaming initiative that would support literacy aims, for teens, primarily

Warriorwolf: is there a report we can read?

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): there were some issues in the end, so no formal report was written to my knowledge, however, one of the key results was a gaming toolbox

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): I was hoping you could tell us a bit about what your grant project involved?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Well, it changed shape and form many times, as after we won I looked at our grant app and thought "What the Hell was I thinking? We'll never get all of this done!" :)

Our focus, however, was promoting games as a storytelling/narrative medium and a viable, legitimate media.

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): promoting to the wider community or library clients or library profession?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): We spent the grant money primarily on equipment, so that we could have more frequent gaming programs (a positive social experience), a circulating games collection, and instituting/promoting regular game nights, more or less, everyone. :) Specifically, the public, however.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): at the time of the grant's inception from ALA, gaming was just barely beginning to take hold as a concept

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): Did the impact of the project continue after the funding was exhausted?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): And after the grant, it seemed to explode, which is both a good and bad thing.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): if you want to see what the 10 winning libraries proposed,

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): It did continue to expand, Stef.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): yours seems to have done as well or better than most, Tag -- I think having a strong champion-advocate in place makes a world of difference

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): The great thing about gaming, especially tabletop gaming, is that you make an initial investment that lasts a long, long time, and just like great books, great games never get old. I would definitely call our project a success; thanks, Hiemal.

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): Any 'lessons learned' that you would warn Aussie library folks about if they're hoping to begin something like this?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Well, my first bit of advice to any librarian/library looking to start gaming is simple: L2P. :)

You don't have to be an expert hardcore gamer who sweats Monster Energy Drinks (and I'm a level 250 IRL, Rey.) :D

But, having an appreciation for the medium can help you advocate for it, and on a practical level you'll want to be able to help the kid who just keeps slapping wildly on the Rock Band drums. :)
My second bit of advice is to offer as many different games as possible.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): Throw it against the wall and see what sticks?

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): I guess like any readers advisory work ... you have to know what's out there to help people find the game they'll really enjoy ... different things for different tastes and interests?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Talking to local gamers can help you narrow down what to throw against the wall for sure.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): I recall hearing at the very first meeting of this guild -- tastes differ not just in communities but internationally. DDO wouldn't fly here but Warhammer might, for example

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): That actually brings me to my third bit of advice: learn to love tabletop gaming.

Stefwynn (Mylee Joseph): Why tabletop in particular?

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): I love video games, always have and always will, but there is something magical about the social experience of a tabletop game.

Why tabletop? Three reasons:

1. The cost-benefit is mindblowing. For $100, you could get the basic D&D books, some miniatures and tiles, dice, and some other helpful addons. Take care of your equipment, and it will last a LONG time.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): *cough*Pathfinder*cough*

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): 2. It's the most social a game can get. Even mulitplayer games tend to "separate" gamers, but tabletop gaming--with its lack of flashy graphics and twitch reflexes, brings attention to the game and player interaction itself.

Haven't tried pathfinder...intend to, though.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): Nor have I but it's the first game that seriously is a contender against D&D's historical hold on the TT RPG market

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): Finally, tabletop gaming is the most customizable form of gaming you can invest in. Two words: house rules. :)

Whether it's Connect Four or Magic: the Gathering, you can tailor the rules and game play to any number of audiences, turning a hardcore game (like Magic) into a family friendly affair.

Hiemal (Liz Danforth): libraries as a community center support tabletop games difficulty with finding groups, too --

Taggenbagg (M Brandon Robbins): true. We have a Yu-Gi-Oh group who comes to our open board game nights, and several disenfranchised Magic players now have a home.

Franticread (Ellen Forsyth): I have really enjoyed hearing these ideas – and I will be following up more information for a lot of them too. It was really great having Brandon/Taggenbagg. Please join me in thanking Brandon/Taggenbagg.

The next talk takes place 19 or 20 May, depending on your place in the world, Peggy Sheehy and Lucas Gillespie will talk about WoW in schools (and you can follow WoW in schools on twitter too). This is a very exciting project. Links to more information about WOW in schools are available from the games and libraries wiki